The official Mastodon app is doing something new which is potentially very dangerous to the existence of Mastodon and the Fediverse.
The official Mastodon app now prompts users to join mastodon.social by default, when previously it prompted them to pick a server. If you're new this may sound harmless, but let me explain.
There is technically still an option on the official app to "pick my own server", but it's much harder to read or notice, and new users will probably click the mastodon.social button without even understanding the other button.
Mastodon.social just passed 1 million registered users about a week ago, out of a total network of approx 7 to 11 million users (dependiing on how you count them).
Most of these users probably signed up via the official app.
For the first time ever, the most common way to sign up on the Fediverse is now directing people to sign up on one specific server, rather than making them choose.
This will make mastodon.social grow even more quickly than it has before, and future waves of new Mastodon users may end up mostly there. It's very plausible this one server could become the majority of the Fediverse in the near future.
If that happens, the Fediverse would no longer be protected from buyouts by nasty people.
Yes, signing up on one server is much easier for people who are used to centralised services like Twitter, Facebook etc.
But as we have seen from Twitter, such a setup leaves you at the mercy of Musk-type takeovers. For-profit social networks do not like federation, they hate it as they see it as competition. It is very likely that a commercial takeover of a majority server would defederate it, to prevent people leaving and simplify its maintenance.
This is not an attack on Eugen, I don't do those. Most of what @Gargron does is amazing, the Fedi owes him a great deal, and the fact he turned down large sums of VC money recently shows great integrity.
But eventually most people in that position will crack. Ever larger sums of money can make even the nicest people sell out.
If most of the Fediverse is on mastodon.social, it WILL receive more takeover bids. If it grows even further, these bids will become even higher.
2. Tell people to sign up on the website. Mastodon's official site at https://joinmastodon.org is still asking people to choose a server, and is very professionally laid out. (I've also got my own amateurish effort at https://fedi.garden.)
I feel like this is the same pains we feel in the WordPress space. OS let's forking happen. This might happen. Who knows. But thanks for a great thread.
I started on Mastodon.social, but always planned that to be a temporary thing. Just stayed long enough to figure out Mastodon and then find a server that I liked.
How about replacing the mastodon.social button with a "random server" button to put them on any general-purpose instance that has open registrations? That should spread people around more @Gargron
I've watched people here saying "we need to simplify the sign up process, to get more people onto Mastodon" Doesn't this help do this this, while also providing a way for people to just as easily pick their own server? Your thoughts, people 🙇♂️🙏❤️....
I appreciate your being careful to make this about the fediverse, not Mastodon or Eugen.
Here's why I welcome the change.
We are losing *so many* users to server choice. I only have anecdata and wish I had more. But just last night, a tech product manager emailed me his whole list of hobbies and interests, saying he was "at a loss" for how to join Mastodon.
If we don't grow the fediverse now, centralized competitors will win and nothing will change. (1/2)
I reckon this problem could be fixed at the code level by using the SOLID project from Sir Tim Berners-Lee. Actually I'm surprised that Mastodon hasn't jumped onboard already. His solution would effectively transfer data ownership to every user, who could host his data anywhere and then authorise what applications can access it. It would ruin once and for all the "American way" of corporate-bully culture.
I think this is a good thing. Choosing a server is hard. Really hard. I first picked a server that ended up going away (I got locked out because their 2FA stopped working and couldn't migrate my account out, and the admin got sick and stopped running it). Then I tried mastodon.social. And that was when I actually started really using mastodon. Finally I found a server that fit me, I knew the admins, etc, and I moved to THAT.
This design choice was probably made because they found that when forced to choose a server, many people just give up and don’t join Mastodon at all. Maybe they could still offer a button that picks the server for you but it’s chosen at random from all the general instances on joinmastodon.org
One great solution would be a rotating server suggestion based on a dynamic independent list of open servers. Users would get their easy choice, but they'd be distributed. Should be really easy to implement.
worst case scenario it ends up like email is at the moment we are technically anybody can set up a server but don't expect your messages to be delivered reliably if you're not with one of the top five biggest servers run by major corporations (because spam filtering) anybody who is tried to set up their own email server will understand why this is an issue
I desperately hope this kind of thing doesn't happen to activitypub/Mastodon
I agree with Fedtips and understand those who say it's difficult for some users to choose a server. I chose Mastodon.social without knowing what it was and whether it was a good server. The solution seems to be a program that would rotate the servers. Rotation will ensure that all servers get the same amount of users.
I see the issue, but at the same time, this is an attempt to make joining Mastodon less confusing and you're just saying "don't do it" rather than "here is a better way to achieve this goal." I mean, you could just give people a randomized instance, but then you run the risk that some people wind up on crap instances.
Honestly I don't see this as an issue, in fact I welcome it.
It's like Linux, want to get more involved or dig deeper? You have ton of options!
Want to just use your PC and not be bothered by the OS? Install Ubuntu like the vast majority of users.
Asking too many questions or choices is an immediate negative for most people, having an easy default is great! It wasn't the end for Linux to have it, and it won't be the end for the Fediverse!
Not to mention so many instances block mastodon.social because of poor moderation and abuse, which means all these new people will be missing out on some of the most informative and diverse voices of the Fediverse without even realizing it.
IMHO, the website is better than any app. You get the full functionality of Mastodon, and the site is coded to display really well as a mobile webpage. I tried using like 3 different apps, not liking any of them. Why? Because I've been trained to assume the mobile webpage is dogshit.
Then I finally had the notion "what if I look at a mobile webpage?" IT'S REALLY GOOD.
Valid points, but consider Mastodon org ≠ fediverse. Open-source tech, but org shouldn't guide the whole fediverse. Mastodon's app focusing on their servers makes sense. Users can still choose other servers/apps. Reducing friction for newcomers is a fair trade-off, especially with account migration. Helps catch Twitter fall-off. [1/2]
Just an off-the-cuff idea that I haven't really thought about. What about an initial sign-up where people are randomly assigned an instance as their home? Then, as they learn more about Mastodon, they could move to another instance later?
I'm on .social but when I signed up it wasnt via the app it was on my PC, and I didnt understand how it works so just went with what seemed like the default.
My first thought on reading this is that I should move servers. Perhaps a push to get people already on .social to move would help?
So what can be done? Join PeopleCount.org. Support building a way to break out of the current paradigm of politics, including taking power away from the wealthy and the parties, and naturally empowering unity.
Mastodon is good. But it's designed to communicate without profit, not to actually fix anything. It's a piece of a good future. But PeopleCount is designed to deliver that future.
Throwing my two cents in the hat: I think this is a necessary temporary measure to improve the onboarding process. There's no way around it: putting this complexity upfront to new users is daunting.
Educating them on how to move their account afterwards and having that process be seamless is the way to go, imho.
Honestly don’t see the problem. The official app is free to recommend its own instance if it wants to, just as other apps can promote their own. There’s nothing to stop people from switching instances or in fact making their own apps.
step in the right direction. Get the users into the network with as few hurdles as possible. Having to choose server is a pain in the ass and introduces uncertainty for the users. Directing all to the same server is not ideal but still better than having to chose a server without knowing wtf a server is and what the consequences are
this is also just so easy to fix. just reword it to [join mastodon.social] and [pick my own server (recommend)] or even just flipping the colours around. that way you still allow for the easy "just put me in the largest server" option, while at the same time encouraging a large and diverse federation.
I’m no computer expert nor programmer, but I have a question; is it possible to automatically “split” a server into smaller ones as soon as it becomes too big? If it’s transparent to the user, then it would solve this issue, no?
👆 Well-meaning thread without a doubt - but unfortunately one that entirely misses the point that most users of anything, including social media, A. are not tech savvy, B. shouldn't have to be, and C. are focused on the outcome, not the process.
It's definitely correct that concentration increases vulnerability, but the remedy isn't to change the users - it's to give them the best possible entry & path to the preferable solution. This is what we/the 'verse must do.
@Gargron …perhaps it can be as simple as…just a landing page with the ?most capable? 3-5 instances and then a selection of “I know what I’m doing let me pick.”
The points of concern being (in no particular order); That the instances in the list are/can take large amounts of new users gracefully and/or have capacity to support them. These can be updated/changed over time. And that the mobile app has only a small amount of real estate to work with.
It's super unclear to a new user what the significance of the server is and they need a reasonable default option to use prior to really knowing what it means.
Is there a trustworthy way to do load balancing and spreading across open servers? Make the default "the lightest loaded non-dead instance in my preferred language" rather than any particular server but still provide a default.
I signed up where I did just because it was neither full nor empty.
Reading the issue, there seems to be 2 different goals : - People who want as much users on Mastodon as possible -> let's make the onboarding really easy. - People who want to keep it spread and federated.
I’ve tried *many* Fedi apps and I keep coming back to the ‘official’ one. Most of the third party apps have implemented *something* in a way that is really annoying. Most common seems to be the way hashtags work - key functionality for me is indicating which hashtag is the most used one. If it doesn’t give me an idea of how much a specific one is used I won’t have a clue which one people might actually be following…
I would be much happier if people could join multiple instances and accounts were not tied to one home instance. In this case the default instance could more easily funnel people to other smaller and more specialized instances. Users would have people to talk to while waiting for their applications to private instances to be approved or denied. The current migration process is off-putting.
If the size of the default instance becomes unmanageable, idle members could be auto-culled.
mastodon.social The original server operated by the Mastodon gGmbH non-profit
And the next one is mstdn.social
I see no real difference here — you afraid of concentrating people on a single server without choice. But new people will surely tend to choose the 1st or the 2nd one, even while they have a choice.
I'll be perfectly honest with you, I get what you're saying but as a new user I wish this was there for me. It was very confusing when I first signed up to the point I almost gave up on it. I picked Social because all the big names seemed to be here & I didn't understand how the system works with other servers.
There needs to be more focus to explain the system & simplify the process or people are going to move past Mastodon. Just my two cents as a newbie, I could be wrong.
Let this go. Making it easier for people to join Mastodon will only benefit the network. Once they land, they can then move if they choose to. Such ideological frenzy will only get in the way of this platform being all that it can be. The Fediverse, by nature, is not 'pure.' So let's not try to purify it.
Coming from 25+ years of using email, usenet, IRC-- all things where you have to "pick a server"-- that part of joining Mastodon didn't phase me.
BUT I really picked the wrong server for me the first time around, then went through two more before finding the one I really feel at home on.
Get people in the door. They can worry about picking a server after they get their feet wet.
And while they won't be able to port all their posts (because of AP), they will be able to move their accounts to new servers if/when Eugen finally sees enough zeroes on the check.
@Gargron I do think this could be easily mitigated by just using the nasty trick some websites do with the cookie consent notification and make the “Pick my own server” button the one that’s on top and more visible.
It still would leave the option for a simple solution for those who want it but makes picking a server the default and the first thing people see.
@Gargron There's something to be said for signup simplicity. However, in order to maintain federation stability, perhaps the app could assign less-used servers automatically?
no no please do attack him, he's been twitterifying Mastodon for too long and people needs to oust him and stop treating upstream Mastodon as the holy bible of ActivityPub before he ruins it completely.
makes me glad I'm holed out on world than social. I am a bit worried about the app though, I don't want to switch to tooot just because I much prefer the UI of this app...
Scratching my head here. I’m neither technically proficient nor especially patient. I heard Mastodon was “hard,” only to find out it isn’t, including choosing a server. It really isn’t hard but that’s what I keep hearing.
As a newbie to Mastodon, I found this series of posts very helpful. I understand now the importance of migrating to another server but I am still confused about it. A server is different from a Group? Will I still be able to see the folks I am following? It changes what I see under "Local" and "Federated," right? Or the navigation also changes? Sorry for the barrage of newbie questions :\
Somehow, that doesn’t seem right to me. I like having a large variety of servers, each with their own personality. I’m not a Scot, but I wouldn’t give up the friendliness and earthiness of .scot for anything.
Oh wow, that is very sad. There should probably be an artificial cap on the size of the server if technically they can grow so much because someone is skilled in running it well on one server.
Maybe #Mastodon is taking lessons from #Microsoft. They used to have a teeny, tiny #button (well, a link, really) to skip the automatic update to Microsoft Windows 10.
On the other hand, statements from someone that I respect, who spent a long time on twitter but finally joined us here, have said, after having spent many months here, that they still believe that the onboarding problem is real.
Don't take me wrong, I agree with you on everything you said. I'd rather see less people join the Fediverse than seeing more centralisation around m.s. But if the goal is to bring more people in, something like this needs to be done.
Perhaps an option would be for instances to make their own application (which would just be one of the common applications, but branded to their instance).
That way, if you wanted to join mstdn.social, you just download the mstdn.social application.
A lot of people these days don't know the difference between an application and a website anyway, so this may actually be more in line with expectations.
@feditips maybe it's a bad idea, but would be nice that the official app asked for topics you are interested in ( like other social media platforms do when you sign up). And then showed you a list of servers that for in that category.
After a bad experience with a terrible mod, who nuked my last account without warning or explanation, I've temporarily joined mastodon.social so I can have reasonable confidence in rebuilding a following without fear of being shut down again, then potentially migrate the new account/following around the fedi.
I've also syndicated longer posts using Hubzilla, to which I've installed ActivityPub so it's interoperable with Masto. Nomadic identity, baby. Shut me down now! 😎
I suspect @Gargron is trying to address the UX problems Mastodon has.
(And there are a lot of UX problems.)
I've been doing a lot of UX testing of various parts of the Fediverse (including Mastodon).
I think @Gargron has definitely (also) noticed one of the UX problems — having to choose a server causes many people to give up and abandon the sign up process.
Of all the *real* issues out there, people “maybe” signing up to one particular Mastodon instance instead of another is actually worth cold-sweating about?
The whole 'pick your server' has been one of the complaints to get non-tech people on board, so I very much welcome this. You can still pick another server but at least to non-tech users have a clear way forward.
Hmm. I don't know. I agree with everything you say here about the need to avoid one server becoming too big, but at the same time the "pick a server, any server" stage at onboarding has proved to be too much of a hurdle for far too many non-techie users. Perhaps this really is the least worst workaround for that—make one server a "welcome" server and then let people move once they've got in and had a chance to get used to it?
There's also the moderation issue where some instances are "too big to fail" and you can't just defederate from them fully because too many people, including some friends, are there. So intentionally funnelling everyone there rather than trying to diffuse that as much as possible is not a good thing.
I'm not technical but isn't this a flaw in Mastodon's basic functionality? It should be tweaked so that it has a tendency towards many smaller servers, that the disincentive to increase the size of a server gets exponentially stronger as the server grows.
Eugen literally said in one of his recent big interviews, that instance diversity is "historical" and he sees no alternative to default servers. Of course, his default servers.
When I read it, it was clear to me in which direction Mastodon is heading. The app is just the beginning.
Mastodon's decentralization is key to safeguarding free speech and preventing greedy centralization (which is what happens right in front of us now). Central servers can easily become susceptible to censorship, surveillance, and data abuse. By supporting Mastodon's diverse community of servers, we can ensure that power remains decentralized and accessible to all. Let's prioritize decentralization over greed!
I quit twitter and joined here when Elon started messing with the CBC. I had/have no idea how this thing works and wouldn't know what picking a server means. The first time I heard Fediverse was about 3 days ago.
There is an obvious solution that strikes me that would keep the clear "Give Only One Big Featured Choice to Users" - that I agree with, *AND* that distributes users away from one centralized server alone. Which I also empathize wiith.
That would be to round-robin which server gets that central place every X days. And set the standard for quality of service, clear branding, etc, to get that spot.
You're right that it's a risk of centralization, but OTOH it's hard to expect users to make a decision about their server before even knowing what that is and what are the implications.
Maybe the app could suggest one of 3-5 top servers at random?
That's very strange, he said recently in the interview with The Verge that he doesnt want to be in that situation "where a single node is much, much bigger than the other ones" explaining the nature of decentralized social network and the process of sing up..Some changes like the possibility to even register in mastodon.social are for a brief period of time, lets hope this is the case. Maybe a strategy to accelerate the growth in front of the new options to the birdsite.
Had I not heard @Gargron talk about this with Nilay Patel, I'd go straight to agreeing. I agree with his belief this'll ease people getting in the door, after which they'll be inclined to transfer elsewhere.
That strikes me as a bad step and also going against the Federated idea. I thought the idea was a multiplicity of servers of different interests and textures.
This move seems definitely a desire for monopolization.
i think that this move could be a good way for people to join the app/ site off rip. We, as a larger community, should encourage users to make more accounts on different servers.
Overall, the more people that join the app would be best for everyone involved
I definitely see the concerns though. And I also agree that this move kind of goes against the idea of mastodon, but the platform still gotta grow somehow
nononononono @Gargron why??? I understand that this makes it easier for people to join for people who don't know what the fediverse is and how it works, but come on. Why mastodon.social? Why not show a random server that complies with some rules like the ones you have on joinmastodon.org? Or why not make a contest, or a voting or something else? mastodon.social already is big and this will just harm the fediverse in the long term
New people should have the option of being randomly assigned from a curated list by default, determined by locale (eg Canadians get send to social.coop or mstdn.ca). Promote mastodon.social as a secondary option from their app, sure.
I understand the concern, but so long as the option for instances to exist within Mastodon it shouldn't be a problem. I hope this is just a way to make things easier for tech illiterate people. Once Mastodon makes it harder for new Instances to exist with it THEN the alarms should go off.
I understand the plight, but everyone I know tries Mastadon, sees they need to choose a server and give up. It’s lacks clarity and it’s a step that doesn’t provide clarity as to why it exists. It’s where I paused and searched to figure out what I should choose, only to timidly choose the most common option as I don’t know any better. Perhaps improving ways to migrate servers would ease issues later on.
I guess I wonder why small-instance admins aren't seeking out and inviting people they think would be good fits for their instance's culture. From among the already-signed-up I mean.
This is a concern, but if it helps to know that @ addresses are visible on posts and people who want to explore will probably investigate what are those funny other addresses. People who are not set for this exploration deserve a soft landing. Perhaps they should offer a default @trail.mastodon.social that eventually you have to leave if you do not feel ready to choose a server yet…
@chad I don't think that's a bad idea, the whole "omg which server do I choose" is a frequently cited barrier to entry. Makes sense that the creator of the app would default to a server they control and can be reasonably certain will provide new users as good as an experience as they can get (e.g. a server that isn't overloaded and doesn't have weird moderation rules).
Once people are used to the service they can move their accounts if they want.
Disagree. People can be paralyzed with indecision when there are too many choices, especially when they don’t really know how Mastodon works yet. I definitely agonized over choosing the “right” instance last winter, so I just gave up on that and went with mastodon.social, and it was freeing and allowed me to jump in. It’s helpful. After a few weeks, I knew what I was doing. I planned on migrating, until I found out my previous posts don’t come with me. We need to fix THAT.
I don't have a problem with the official app directing people to the project's main instance. But the "Pick my own Server" button should be given similar contrast.
I had an account I never used years ago on an instance that disappeared without notice. When I signed up for THIS account I purposely chose the Mastodon project's main server to hopefully avoid my instance disappearing on me again.
Some people are confused by having to choose a server and just give up.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I 100% agree with your assessment.
I really hope this was a honest mistake (maybe some misunderstood usability concern?) and they will revert this change. mastodon.social is NOT the "default instance" and never was. While it's large, many Mastodon users live on a different instance (me included). That's a feature, not a bug.
Might be interesting read, I am absolutely sure there is no bad intentions and it also isn't set in stone. Compelling arguments will be heard, I would bet a lot on this 😀
I get what you're driving at, but on the other hand, a perennial problem with Fedi is adoption rate. Having a proven server available by default helps increase that adoption, like a tutorial.
@trinsec I agree with the post but I think they're trying to do everything that they can to "make it easier for newbies". Yes, it's a mistake, but I don't know if there are better solutions for them yet. It is definitely the easy way out of that problem though.
That is worrisome. It might be just a gut feeling, but I'd be much more comfortable if the highlighted server were a temporary, 3rd party instance that requires a move in say, 3 months or so.
no, you’re wrong. What’s harmful is making mastodon difficult to sign up for by the average user, therefore deterring potential new users, pushing them to yet another propriety twitter clone. We need people to use FOSS social media for the first time, and then teach them how it works, not the other way around.
I'm really 50/50 about this. On one hand I can absolutely see how this is/can be a problem. On the other hand, the server selection stuff has been one of the biggest problems for adoption. So I don't know the solution. Is the solution to say "fk those people that can't handle the server stuff"? I don't know. Does the email "protocol" have issues because major players own most people's emails? Yes, because small email providers are often blocked or marked as spam.
@donmelton One solution to the problem could be replacing the “join mastodon.social” button with a “help me pick a server” button. This could open a wizard with a few questions about the users interests, etc, and then end with a list of a few appropriate server options? This could solve the overwhelming amount of choice, without directing new users to any one particular server
Pick my own server ---- or ---- Join mastodon.social
Then it would be better. And "Pick my own server" should be highlighted by default. Otherwise, not that bad for a quick start, because you can change anytime later, but, to get the thing behind the #fediverse and first read about it, you are more concerned with the matter, when you have to choose a server from the start, without easy clicking.
I think this is primarily a UX problem. New users that do not know much about how the fedrigeres works, are discouraged from joining at the step of selecting their instance. The recommendations / discovery of instances does not really help. I’ve seen this myself. Offering a default is a good approach - maybe switch the two buttons. New users should not be driven away - neither because it is not clear ho to continue nor because a necessary focus on diversity.
"Pick my own server" makes the impression of picking an *own* server, so most people will skip that. That's really not how things should be, why did the choose these words? It should be "Pick another server" instead. #Mastodon
This isn't harmful at all – no more so than the existence of the Mastodon app itself.
It's just an "easy mode" for people to sign up without having to understand a bunch of stuff first. Good for people who have heard of Mastodon and gone to the app store and typed in "Mastodon" without doing all this homework people think they should be doing.
As they learn, they might make different decisions. Or not! (I've stuck around on .social)
I see a lot of people think this is a good thing. And that users will start there and then move away. Have you met people?! People don't post their contents on a server, just so they leave it behind and go to another one. Not to mention saying "pick my own server" make user think its for server admins/owners.
What if after a while the app become exclusively for mastodon.social? Is that ok too? what of mastodon.social become popular and then unfederated?
People who've never used Mastodon are the *least* equipped to choose a server. They have no idea what different servers are like or where the people they're interested in will turn out to be. It stopped me from joining for years. Within months of joining I could see where my friends were, what I liked, and what it meant to be on a specific instance, and move.
This makes joining easier. Moving should be easier too.
I agree with what you are saying here, Perhaps the reasoning is to address the confusion people were reporting. Perhaps something like "you can move data to another instance at a later date" needs to be added. So people are aware they can do that.
I see it personally with the other eye, when I made a friend discover mastodon I told her to choose a server and she literally answered me « what is a server? « , I think it’s rather good for people who don’t know computer science to go to mastodon without taking the lead.
I posted a whole rant about server choice just an hour before finding about this change. I agree that forcing new users to the same monolithic instance is a terrible idea, but I also think "Welcome new user who doesn't yet know anything about this place, choose a server now, here are a thousand options" is a big obstacle.
What I'd suggested was rather just assigning a nearby instance, maybe based on geolocating IP address or something, and if that doesn't give a satisfactory result, then have them enter a few interests and use that as a keyword search on instance descriptions. The choice is a good thing, but it's also a huge mental block for new users. Migration is fine, and people should be actively encouraged to find the right instance, but not while they're still trying to figure out if they even want to be here.
I see your concern, but easy usage for new people is also quite important. The complexity of servers is one of the main complaints of new users. So I think this change is good.
Important topic! I’ll try to write a blog response later to do it justice, but in short:
I support Mastodon’s move here. The risks you mention just aren’t the same with open source software.
If this change led to Mastodon having 100 million users this year, that’d still be a net positive for the fediverse and the open web, in spite of Mastodon’s non-ideal outsize influence.
At the slightest hint of bad practice on Mastodon’s end, we could switch clients, move, or fork.
I feel like this will just kill mastodon.social faster too, because it's already borderline unmanageable, and in the process, souring the experience for everybody who's in there and don't know they can move out
One of the most often mentioned complaints by people is onboarding to Mastodon is the cognitive load of needing to choose a server. Making it easier for them to use mastodon.social might seem problematic, but it may be an acceptable UI tradeoff to bootstrap the network at first.
While I appreciate the point you're making here, I don't think the right answer is to simply return to the old default, which constituted a major sticking point for even those new users who were technically literate. Instead of pushing for a reversion, why not simply ask for the app to suggest a server at random from a reasonable number of carefully curated ones? That pool could gradually grow over time to avoid the over-concentration issue.
And expected change. That you where forced to choose a server was one of the biggest painpoints in the signup process. So I'm relatively happy that there is a default in place.
However, yes this creates another drawback as you told here. Hmm
Oh, c'mon @Gargron this instance is already melting down whenever there's a peak in activity, at least make that a random instance from a curated list or something 🙄
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand this goes against the principles of the fediverse. On the other hand, too many people have an irrational fear of the server selection process and maybe this helps with it.
The better thing would be to have a "give me a random server" button which selects a server based on your ip address.
All the points here are good and valid. It's also valid that picking a server is intimidating for most new users.
What I'd like to see is a list of servers willing to be 'default' servers for lack of a better term, then the app picks one at random while preserving the option for 'other'
The point is not to spread the users as much as possible. This is nonsense. The point is that you can chose your instance and can migrate wherever and whenever you want. This design decision is good.
I’m not sure why “pick a mastodon server the same way you pick an email server” isn’t pushed as the best solution. Just let them pick a username and a server from a list of servers that meet certain basic criteria (minimum number of users, minimum age, same primary language). And streamline the process of migrating, so message history can be moved easily (can even have ability for destination instance to have a filter list to reduce risk of content that doesn’t align with policies).
maybe you're right but it also has a bright side, even i as a power user (probably) was confused a lot when i was trying to make a mastodon account just for the shear amount of servers there was. at list by this way it's easier for normies to get started with mastodon and still viable for power users to choose other instances. tldr: if you're really aren't a power user most probably you'll be choosing mastodon.social as your server
Having a server chosen for you is a necessary step imo. Friends haven't followed me over from Twitter because they weren't sure what server to pick and decided it's too complicated. I think a good compromise would be to have a list of trusted instances and the app will choose one of them at random by default with the option to browse the others, similar to how Windows lets you choose your default web browser.
Everyone participating in this thread and on the Github ticket should be aware of the history of Mastodon development, namely that staff ignores 99.9% of everything said to them and proceeds to do whatever the fuck they want.
Also, many of these ideas have been discussed extensively, years ago.
We've been talking a lot (in different issues and on the network) about the experience of brand new users joining Mastodon, so I made this issue to summarize some of the current problems, and also ...
I do get why you find this concerning, but ... I think this is a strategy to make it easier for those who have never dealt with this kind of environment to join. One way to make it better, might be to add some sort of drop down that lists topics & could direct them to related servers. Sort of adding/automating what you do.
Or it will let people get a taste of the Fediverse and then change servers later. The whole pick an instance thing was too confusing for me for years. This take is incredibly gatekeep-y 🙁
I think they'd be best served by having people join mastodon.social, just so people "get here", and then recommend that they get a secondary server as well, right from the get-go.
Like, Join Mastodon and get your mastodon.social account, now check out some servers local to your area or like your interests.
I do that. I have an account at several servers as well as my own family instance.
It's nice to be on sfba when I'm in a local mood, but if I want to get more info about tech stuff or some other stuff that's more common elsewhere, I may switch accounts. And I certainly don't want my family seeing me gripe about politics!
y'know, JoinMastodon.org already has a list of approved servers adhering to a strict enough covenant...
So why not take that list, and make something like instances.social out of it.
So many social networks already ask you your interests upon startup, it would just make sense for the Mastodon app to ask your interests in order to narrow down the instance selection. A few questions could suffice, and it could highlight one out of the results to reduce indecision.
As long as other servers exist, and all our Masto data is portable, I don't have a problem with a default bucket server for new accounts on Mastodon.
A lot of users of social media don't care to shop around when they have already picked an app to use. When it's the Official Mastodon app, of course the Mastodon org is going to suggest their own official servers. And frankly, most users are going want the default server.
I think you are letting your ideals get in the way of reality.
Personally, I would suggest a random approach for showing a random Mastodon server. This will ensure that all servers (who wish to appear on the main page/app) get a fair share.
Also, not one server is overwhelmed by the sudden flow of traffic.
This smells very #bigtech. This is like opening your generic email client on an Android device (not Gmail app), and seeing a big giant "Sign up for Gmail" button. Most email clients at least have multiple buttons for various popular email hosts. Almost like multiple "Sign in with..." authentication.
Mastodon should at least be similar: several buttons for a short list of the bigger more reliable "Popular servers". Followed by an equality visible "Browse More Servers" button.
the entire point may be missed if it's only 3 nerds using the network. If you want more people joining it needs to be easy to join. Let people in, discover how things work, and help them find the right instance for them.
U R right. I remember when I started using Mastodon, mastodon.social wasn't even available to create new accounts. I guess they got more money now to pump up that server.
having a default to rely on is good ux, although for fedi, having 2 or 3 potential default instances would be optimal : shows people can be on multiple instances, while still having defaults for easy onboarding (what most people want)
I see the need to make the process of joining easier for attracting a bigger user base. I know that my choice was not informed by anything other than a guess. Perhaps a process to move to another ‘home server’ could be made easy and exploring the alternatives ‘a thing’.
@sophie I’d have quite liked a “pick for me” option that asked some questions then suggested a server. It could even use the answers in constructing an initial profile.
interesting points. I accept the need to make it easier. Presumably it wouldn't be that difficult to build in a list of 'general' starter servers that can be cycled through on page load to give many more options.
It would be nice if there were two or three more randomised suggestions from major servers maybe with a one-line intro. I wish they went for the tutorial island approach and then presented a list of options, but people may be turned off if they have to "work." It's a hard balance. Onboarding is definitely the major issue here.
Yo veo esto como una manera de simplificar unirse a Mastodon. Elegir un servidor sin entender bien bien cómo funciona esto es una tarea abrumadora. Si simplemente pudieran registrarse en uno entender cómo funciona todo esto y que luego pueden cambiarse de servidor como quien se cambia de ropa interior. Obviamente, habrá mucha gente que no se cambie de servidor porque simplemente estará bien así. Pero algunos de ellos se cambiarán a instancias que encajen mejor con sus gustos o se crearán varias cuentas. También estaría bien que según tu ubicación te haga registrarte en la instancia generalista más grande de tu zona. Así evitaríamos que muchos usuarios entren en una sola instancia.
Those, who are used to centralized networks, tend to use official apps and official servers. They want it to be centralized, they don't want to read rules, they want to proceed directly to the content. And, probably, this is the issue to solve. As you can see, when it was an option to choose a server, they tend to choose mastodon.social.
One more thing. Mastodon (and Fediverse) is neither a community nor a social network. It is a tool to build a community or social network.
A community is a group of people willing to communicate. They can use different servers, protocols, tools.
A social network is about you and the people you would like to communicate with. A social network is you and your connections on Fediverse, LinkedIn, Twitter, chats, work, emails, etc.
So, do not mess with the terms. Fediverse is not a social network. Mastodon.social is not a community.
I think that if mastodon wants to be a social network of the masses, you have to be prepared for more action in that direction to follow.
It's not a nice thing, but the reality is that most people don't care about open source. If that happens, it's up to the open source community, here on mastodon, to make sure that open source principles continue to be valued, even if most users of the platform don't seem to care.
I believe it is a topic for a long discussion outside of this thread.
Let's get back to the point. They obviously choose a server by the slogan and popularity. And then tend to demand other servers to conform to their rules. And they demand their admin to protect them. Same as Twitter, right?
In my mind, the major threat to decentralized social media is simple; huge incumbent platforms have network effects that are almost impossible to overcome. These platforms are the opposite of…
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, that "Growing the bars" chart is incredibly misleading. I don't know whether you are doing this deliberately or accidentally, but it's a terrible approach.
Presenting promotion of mastodon.social as equivalent to promoting Mastodon is just "fediwashing".
Asking people to choose a server is a goal in itself. It makes them aware of the issues involved. Skipping that step is missing the point completely.
It would be like an environmental group deciding that lifestyle changes are putting people off the environmental cause, so they drop the lifestyle changes and decide to just "greenwash" instead.
You're using the same "let's get the supporter numbers up, damn the cause" logic.
Yes some servers will let you down, but that's why it's important to use curated lists and not just choose something at random. (I've tried to start my own at https://fedi.garden and there's nothing to stop others doing the same.) Curated lists can demand reliability etc.
Your suggestion is like saying we should all eat at McDonalds because it has the most consistent standards, and independent restaurants might give you food poisoning.
@dimitrisk @spreadmastodon I appreciate all the thoughts! I hope that you or others are able to make progress on the projects I list at the bottom, which would concretely help in keeping the fediverse decentralized. Beyond that it sounds like we'll need to agree to disagree on this one topic, but I appreciate your work in helping people learn about the fediverse. I've found many of your posts helpful.
seems fine. The few people i know who do get past the confusing "choose a server" part usually ends up finding a more suitable community for themselves and moving there eventually anyway
2. Tell people to sign up on the website. Mastodon's official site at https://joinmastodon.org is still asking people to choose a server, and is very professionally laid out. (I've also got my own amateurish effort at https://fedi.garden.)
FediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •There is technically still an option on the official app to "pick my own server", but it's much harder to read or notice, and new users will probably click the mastodon.social button without even understanding the other button.
Mastodon.social just passed 1 million registered users about a week ago, out of a total network of approx 7 to 11 million users (dependiing on how you count them).
Most of these users probably signed up via the official app.
(2/6)
FediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •For the first time ever, the most common way to sign up on the Fediverse is now directing people to sign up on one specific server, rather than making them choose.
This will make mastodon.social grow even more quickly than it has before, and future waves of new Mastodon users may end up mostly there. It's very plausible this one server could become the majority of the Fediverse in the near future.
If that happens, the Fediverse would no longer be protected from buyouts by nasty people.
(3/6)
FediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •But as we have seen from Twitter, such a setup leaves you at the mercy of Musk-type takeovers. For-profit social networks do not like federation, they hate it as they see it as competition. It is very likely that a commercial takeover of a majority server would defederate it, to prevent people leaving and simplify its maintenance.
(4/6)
FediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •But eventually most people in that position will crack. Ever larger sums of money can make even the nicest people sell out.
If most of the Fediverse is on mastodon.social, it WILL receive more takeover bids. If it grows even further, these bids will become even higher.
(5/6)
FediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •1. Tell new people to use third party apps, they are better anyway and have more features. More info at https://fedi.tips/which-apps-can-i-use-should-i-use-the-official-app-or-a-third-party-app/
2. Tell people to sign up on the website. Mastodon's official site at https://joinmastodon.org is still asking people to choose a server, and is very professionally laid out. (I've also got my own amateurish effort at https://fedi.garden.)
3. If you're comfortable using github, give a thumbs up at https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon-ios/issues/1023
(6/6)
Which Mastodon apps can I use? Should I use the official app or a third party app? | Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tipsOutOnTheMoors
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •(Yes, I'm on mastodon.social, but I joined when it was smallish.)
Seth Goldstein
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Ferles :neurodiv:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •First Dread Pirate Roberts
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Kevin Karhan :verified:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •It really comes close to the ancient #TweetDeck #mobile app and @mariotaku's #Twidere...
GunChleoc
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Lee 🌏
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Doesn't this help do this this, while also providing a way for people to just as easily pick their own server?
Your thoughts, people 🙇♂️🙏❤️....
David Slifka
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Here's why I welcome the change.
We are losing *so many* users to server choice. I only have anecdata and wish I had more. But just last night, a tech product manager emailed me his whole list of hobbies and interests, saying he was "at a loss" for how to join Mastodon.
If we don't grow the fediverse now, centralized competitors will win and nothing will change. (1/2)
Rodrigo Gambra
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •His solution would effectively transfer data ownership to every user, who could host his data anywhere and then authorise what applications can access it. It would ruin once and for all the "American way" of corporate-bully culture.
Andres "🧠🐛✊" Salomon
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Baruch 🇮🇱
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •June Blender
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Complexity of systems
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I desperately hope this kind of thing doesn't happen to activitypub/Mastodon
nEo
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Charles Herold
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •So what is your solution?
Tadeo D'Oria 🇦🇷 💚🧡
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •It's like Linux, want to get more involved or dig deeper? You have ton of options!
Want to just use your PC and not be bothered by the OS? Install Ubuntu like the vast majority of users.
Asking too many questions or choices is an immediate negative for most people, having an easy default is great! It wasn't the end for Linux to have it, and it won't be the end for the Fediverse!
Hollie
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •AT-AT Assault 🏳️⚧️
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •IMHO, the website is better than any app. You get the full functionality of Mastodon, and the site is coded to display really well as a mobile webpage. I tried using like 3 different apps, not liking any of them. Why? Because I've been trained to assume the mobile webpage is dogshit.
Then I finally had the notion "what if I look at a mobile webpage?" IT'S REALLY GOOD.
skllzrmy
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •AskPippa🇨🇦
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Vint Prox
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •This wording is lethal, what were they thinking?
Florencio ⭐⭐⭐
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Jax
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •My first thought on reading this is that I should move servers. Perhaps a push to get people already on .social to move would help?
Rand Strauss
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Mastodon is good. But it's designed to communicate without profit, not to actually fix anything. It's a piece of a good future. But PeopleCount is designed to deliver that future.
Jona
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Jeroen Baert
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Educating them on how to move their account afterwards and having that process be seamless is the way to go, imho.
taymaz :verified:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Andreas Ringdal
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Talya (she/her) 🏳️⚧️✡️
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Gustavo 🎮🔭🇵🇷
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •serklarvel
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Maybe @Gargron could clarify if possible.
JW prince of CPH
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •It's definitely correct that concentration increases vulnerability, but the remedy isn't to change the users - it's to give them the best possible entry & path to the preferable solution. This is what we/the 'verse must do.
Ministerofimpediments
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •The points of concern being (in no particular order);
That the instances in the list are/can take large amounts of new users gracefully and/or have capacity to support them. These can be updated/changed over time.
And that the mobile app has only a small amount of real estate to work with.
Urzl
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Is there a trustworthy way to do load balancing and spreading across open servers? Make the default "the lightest loaded non-dead instance in my preferred language" rather than any particular server but still provide a default.
I signed up where I did just because it was neither full nor empty.
Zekovski
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •- People who want as much users on Mastodon as possible -> let's make the onboarding really easy.
- People who want to keep it spread and federated.
This is a time we have to choose between the two.
Stewart Tolhurst
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •sunandshadow
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •If the size of the default instance becomes unmanageable, idle members could be auto-culled.
NeonkAaa
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •mastodon.social The original server operated by the Mastodon gGmbH non-profit
And the next one is mstdn.social
I see no real difference here — you afraid of concentrating people on a single server without choice. But new people will surely tend to choose the 1st or the 2nd one, even while they have a choice.
J.M. Bond
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •There needs to be more focus to explain the system & simplify the process or people are going to move past Mastodon. Just my two cents as a newbie, I could be wrong.
Insider UA
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Peter Merholz
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •m. libby
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Coming from 25+ years of using email, usenet, IRC-- all things where you have to "pick a server"-- that part of joining Mastodon didn't phase me.
BUT I really picked the wrong server for me the first time around, then went through two more before finding the one I really feel at home on.
Get people in the door. They can worry about picking a server after they get their feet wet.
And while they won't be able to port all their posts (because of AP), they will be able to move their accounts to new servers if/when Eugen finally sees enough zeroes on the check.
taxet
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •It still would leave the option for a simple solution for those who want it but makes picking a server the default and the first thing people see.
Stegosaurus
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Mx Amber Alex
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •rood
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •JamesTDG
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Alien software, human hardware
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Why would this be a problem then?
Algernon D'Ammassa
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Runyan50
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •elle mundy
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •ArdentArchivist
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •MaryPot
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Mutiny Crinshaw
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •🐌’s Pace
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Jeena
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •First Dread Pirate Roberts
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Elias Mårtenson
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Don't take me wrong, I agree with you on everything you said. I'd rather see less people join the Fediverse than seeing more centralisation around m.s. But if the goal is to bring more people in, something like this needs to be done.
Perhaps an option would be for instances to make their own application (which would just be one of the common applications, but branded to their instance).
That way, if you wanted to join mstdn.social, you just download the mstdn.social application.
A lot of people these days don't know the difference between an application and a website anyway, so this may actually be more in line with expectations.
Folker
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Peque
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •like other social media platforms do when you sign up). And then showed you a list of servers that for in that category.
Probably Paul 🌍
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I've also syndicated longer posts using Hubzilla, to which I've installed ActivityPub so it's interoperable with Masto. Nomadic identity, baby. Shut me down now! 😎
@reiver ⊼ (Charles) :batman:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •(And there are a lot of UX problems.)
I've been doing a lot of UX testing of various parts of the Fediverse (including Mastodon).
I think @Gargron has definitely (also) noticed one of the UX problems — having to choose a server causes many people to give up and abandon the sign up process.
...
Let me ask you this —
Éamonn
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •The Peter Pan of Nerdery™️
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •petur 🔵😶
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •You can still pick another server but at least to non-tech users have a clear way forward.
Hughster
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •aismallard (relocated!)
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Dixzy
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •James Reed
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Louis
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •When I read it, it was clear to me in which direction Mastodon is heading. The app is just the beginning.
Mastodon's decentralization is key to safeguarding free speech and preventing greedy centralization (which is what happens right in front of us now). Central servers can easily become susceptible to censorship, surveillance, and data abuse. By supporting Mastodon's diverse community of servers, we can ensure that power remains decentralized and accessible to all. Let's prioritize decentralization over greed!
#Mastodon
jesuiSatire …ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •sad
Rye
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I wonder if a compromise could look like cycling through a different default general-interest server every app update
David Bleackley
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Chris 🌱 :verified_purple:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Tim Chambers
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •That would be to round-robin which server gets that central place every X days. And set the standard for quality of service, clear branding, etc, to get that spot.
Víktor Bautista i Roca
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •will-r-s-hansen
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Kornel
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Maybe the app could suggest one of 3-5 top servers at random?
Luis M. Gómez C.
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Ehler
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •The Eddie Show 📷🎧❤️
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Leisureguy
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •This move seems definitely a desire for monopolization.
Matthias Rex 🦣
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •stux⚡
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •And only thing I wondered was..
Why…
pinecone
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Overall, the more people that join the app would be best for everyone involved
I definitely see the concerns though. And I also agree that this move kind of goes against the idea of mastodon, but the platform still gotta grow somehow
Farshid Hakimy
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I understand that this makes it easier for people to join for people who don't know what the fediverse is and how it works, but come on. Why mastodon.social?
Why not show a random server that complies with some rules like the ones you have on joinmastodon.org?
Or why not make a contest, or a voting or something else?
mastodon.social already is big and this will just harm the fediverse in the long term
Harry
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Rob Bos
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Dreamer
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Flock of Cats 🐈 🐈 🐈 🌸
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •“Pick another server” would be better
SippingInk
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Extinction (our fate)
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •bigTanuki
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Perhaps they should offer a default @trail.mastodon.social that eventually you have to leave if you do not feel ready to choose a server yet…
Eric Gilmour
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Once people are used to the service they can move their accounts if they want.
𝓥𝓲𝓬𝓽🍓𝓻𝓲𝓪
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Luna Lactea
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •OffWorldGirl
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I had an account I never used years ago on an instance that disappeared without notice. When I signed up for THIS account I purposely chose the Mastodon project's main server to hopefully avoid my instance disappearing on me again.
Some people are confused by having to choose a server and just give up.
盛开的雪豹🪻
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Peter Van Tine
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Wuzzy
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I really hope this was a honest mistake (maybe some misunderstood usability concern?) and they will revert this change. mastodon.social is NOT the "default instance" and never was. While it's large, many Mastodon users live on a different instance (me included). That's a feature, not a bug.
Jürgen - يورجن (he,him) ⚣
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Russell Harrower :verified:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Fripi
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Might be interesting read, I am absolutely sure there is no bad intentions and it also isn't set in stone. Compelling arguments will be heard, I would bet a lot on this 😀
https://zeitschlag.net/you-will-always-be-remembered/
You will always be remembered!
Nathan Mattes (Opinionated Notes)Tagaziel
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Nathaniel Harari
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •JohnW
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Amadeus Maximilian
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I like the UX of giving the user an easy option. I've had friends not join Mastodon because the choice of server paralysed them. 😅
Andrea Grandi 🦕
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •As a supporter of mastodon.social, I'm not happy with this change.
Edward Fattell
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •HannaMarieMay
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •FurbyOnSteroids
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Sean
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •This could open a wizard with a few questions about the users interests, etc, and then end with a list of a few appropriate server options?
This could solve the overwhelming amount of choice, without directing new users to any one particular server
r3vilo
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Pick my own server
---- or ----
Join mastodon.social
Then it would be better. And "Pick my own server" should be highlighted by default. Otherwise, not that bad for a quick start, because you can change anytime later, but, to get the thing behind the #fediverse and first read about it, you are more concerned with the matter, when you have to choose a server from the start, without easy clicking.
Arnd Layer
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •New users that do not know much about how the fedrigeres works, are discouraged from joining at the step of selecting their instance.
The recommendations / discovery of instances does not really help.
I’ve seen this myself.
Offering a default is a good approach - maybe switch the two buttons.
New users should not be driven away - neither because it is not clear ho to continue nor because a necessary focus on diversity.
𝖆𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖔𝖐 🇨🇿🇪🇺
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •#Mastodon
Yusuf Toropov
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •regnad_kcin
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Tom Walker
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •It's just an "easy mode" for people to sign up without having to understand a bunch of stuff first. Good for people who have heard of Mastodon and gone to the app store and typed in "Mastodon" without doing all this homework people think they should be doing.
As they learn, they might make different decisions. Or not! (I've stuck around on .social)
Campaigning against this doesn't help new users.
Hirad
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Have you met people?! People don't post their contents on a server, just so they leave it behind and go to another one.
Not to mention saying "pick my own server" make user think its for server admins/owners.
What if after a while the app become exclusively for mastodon.social? Is that ok too? what of mastodon.social become popular and then unfederated?
Lydia "Trivia"
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •This makes joining easier. Moving should be easier too.
Paul Sutton
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Léo Haf
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Allen Versfeld
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •What I'd suggested was rather just assigning a nearby instance, maybe based on geolocating IP address or something, and if that doesn't give a satisfactory result, then have them enter a few interests and use that as a keyword search on instance descriptions. The choice is a good thing, but it's also a huge mental block for new users. Migration is fine, and people should be actively encouraged to find the right instance, but not while they're still trying to figure out if they even want to be here.
Folker
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Zoe
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Erlend Sogge Heggen
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I support Mastodon’s move here. The risks you mention just aren’t the same with open source software.
If this change led to Mastodon having 100 million users this year, that’d still be a net positive for the fediverse and the open web, in spite of Mastodon’s non-ideal outsize influence.
At the slightest hint of bad practice on Mastodon’s end, we could switch clients, move, or fork.
vylion:latest
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •abcxyz
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •oversizedpanda :unverified:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Dr Pieter Peach
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Making it easier for them to use mastodon.social might seem problematic, but it may be an acceptable UI tradeoff to bootstrap the network at first.
alapite
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Fabian � 🏳️🌈
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •However, yes this creates another drawback as you told here. Hmm
Purple :verified:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •(Combined with the fact that joinmastodon.org hasn't been listing or even responding to new servers for months!)
Not great to actually see this happening
phryk 🏴
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •// @feditips
newsorpigal
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand this goes against the principles of the fediverse. On the other hand, too many people have an irrational fear of the server selection process and maybe this helps with it.
The better thing would be to have a "give me a random server" button which selects a server based on your ip address.
Straadin :splatoon:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •What I'd like to see is a list of servers willing to be 'default' servers for lack of a better term, then the app picks one at random while preserving the option for 'other'
Mr. Bruno :verified:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •MaryPot
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Hope they see how un-Fediversal their choice is and change it.
Waterluvian
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Just do what the philosophy dictates: make your own FOSS app.
MOARCookies
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •wraptile
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •sascha
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •The point is that you can chose your instance and can migrate wherever and whenever you want.
This design decision is good.
Endareth
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •And streamline the process of migrating, so message history can be moved easily (can even have ability for destination instance to have a filter list to reduce risk of content that doesn’t align with policies).
RickDaly
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Linad :blobcatverified:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •tldr: if you're really aren't a power user most probably you'll be choosing mastodon.social as your server
Mike Buckley
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •legumancer Davy
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Marvin Nevarez
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •bytebro
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •deutrino
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Also, many of these ideas have been discussed extensively, years ago.
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/4870
new user experience · Issue #4870 · mastodon/mastodon
GitHubSpaceCat
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I think this is a strategy to make it easier for those who have never dealt with this kind of environment to join.
One way to make it better, might be to add some sort of drop down that lists topics & could direct them to related servers.
Sort of adding/automating what you do.
Defiance!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •josh steiner @vitriolix
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •tptigger
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •This take is incredibly gatekeep-y 🙁
Dan Morris
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Like, Join Mastodon and get your mastodon.social account, now check out some servers local to your area or like your interests.
I do that. I have an account at several servers as well as my own family instance.
It's nice to be on sfba when I'm in a local mood, but if I want to get more info about tech stuff or some other stuff that's more common elsewhere, I may switch accounts. And I certainly don't want my family seeing me gripe about politics!
TheCoolest
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •So why not take that list, and make something like instances.social out of it.
So many social networks already ask you your interests upon startup, it would just make sense for the Mastodon app to ask your interests in order to narrow down the instance selection. A few questions could suffice, and it could highlight one out of the results to reduce indecision.
Down10
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •A lot of users of social media don't care to shop around when they have already picked an app to use. When it's the Official Mastodon app, of course the Mastodon org is going to suggest their own official servers. And frankly, most users are going want the default server.
I think you are letting your ideals get in the way of reality.
TangoAndToys :noverify:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •I know it sounds silly, but if that's the number one reason new users found it "difficult" to join Mastodon, maybe solve one problem at a time.
Eventually people will learn they can relatively change instances afterwards.
Assuming those new users even stay on mastodon at all (I hate to say it, but that's a real concern too.)
John Samuel
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Also, not one server is overwhelmed by the sudden flow of traffic.
Vijay Prema
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Mastodon should at least be similar: several buttons for a short list of the bigger more reliable "Popular servers". Followed by an equality visible "Browse More Servers" button.
Pandathletic
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Eric Nicholls
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Games People Play
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Chris
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •sarah 🦦
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Clif Graves
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Sarah, The Website Therapist
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Darryl Collins 🚴🏻
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Nika Shilobod
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Prakash C
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •удалить
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Matrix.org
Matrix.orgRage Against Leaves
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Lu
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Si simplemente pudieran registrarse en uno entender cómo funciona todo esto y que luego pueden cambiarse de servidor como quien se cambia de ropa interior.
Obviamente, habrá mucha gente que no se cambie de servidor porque simplemente estará bien así. Pero algunos de ellos se cambiarán a instancias que encajen mejor con sus gustos o se crearán varias cuentas.
También estaría bien que según tu ubicación te haga registrarte en la instancia generalista más grande de tu zona. Así evitaríamos que muchos usuarios entren en una sola instancia.
NeonkAaa
Unknown parent • • •Those, who are used to centralized networks, tend to use official apps and official servers. They want it to be centralized, they don't want to read rules, they want to proceed directly to the content. And, probably, this is the issue to solve. As you can see, when it was an option to choose a server, they tend to choose mastodon.social.
And do not forget that "Fediverse != Mastodon".
NeonkAaa
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Mastodon (and Fediverse) is neither a community nor a social network. It is a tool to build a community or social network.
A community is a group of people willing to communicate. They can use different servers, protocols, tools.
A social network is about you and the people you would like to communicate with. A social network is you and your connections on Fediverse, LinkedIn, Twitter, chats, work, emails, etc.
So, do not mess with the terms. Fediverse is not a social network. Mastodon.social is not a community.
Phoeniqz
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •It's not a nice thing, but the reality is that most people don't care about open source. If that happens, it's up to the open source community, here on mastodon, to make sure that open source principles continue to be valued, even if most users of the platform don't seem to care.
Alberto Ⓥ
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •NeonkAaa
Unknown parent • • •NeonkAaa
Unknown parent • • •Let's get back to the point. They obviously choose a server by the slogan and popularity. And then tend to demand other servers to conform to their rules. And they demand their admin to protect them. Same as Twitter, right?
NeonkAaa
Unknown parent • • •David W.
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Brad Johnson
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •David Slifka
Unknown parent • • •@dimitrisk @spreadmastodon Here's some background on our thinking behind that decision.
https://medium.com/@davidslifka_86286/how-to-decentralize-social-media-6ae35a49ac46
How to decentralize social media - David Slifka - Medium
David Slifka (Medium)FediTips has moved!
in reply to David Slifka • • •@davidslifka @dimitrisk @spreadmastodon
I'm sorry, but with all due respect, that "Growing the bars" chart is incredibly misleading. I don't know whether you are doing this deliberately or accidentally, but it's a terrible approach.
Presenting promotion of mastodon.social as equivalent to promoting Mastodon is just "fediwashing".
Asking people to choose a server is a goal in itself. It makes them aware of the issues involved. Skipping that step is missing the point completely.
FediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •It would be like an environmental group deciding that lifestyle changes are putting people off the environmental cause, so they drop the lifestyle changes and decide to just "greenwash" instead.
You're using the same "let's get the supporter numbers up, damn the cause" logic.
FediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Yes some servers will let you down, but that's why it's important to use curated lists and not just choose something at random. (I've tried to start my own at https://fedi.garden and there's nothing to stop others doing the same.) Curated lists can demand reliability etc.
Your suggestion is like saying we should all eat at McDonalds because it has the most consistent standards, and independent restaurants might give you food poisoning.
Fedi.Garden
fedi.gardenFediTips has moved!
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •"If we reach a point where undue centralization became an issue, or seemed even foreseeable to become an issue,"
Undue centralisation is very foreseeable now.
Mastodon.social currently has about 14% of the Fediverse both by raw numbers and MAU.
If there is another wave on a similar scale to last November, that could push mastodon.social over 50%.
Why?
Because this time round the official app is telling everyone to just sign up on m.s
David Slifka
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Nat
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •soafen 🌸
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •windust
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •https://mstdn.social/@feditips/110233289512157360
FediTips has moved!
2023-04-20 21:35:12
Dave/Loebas :verified_pride:
in reply to FediTips has moved! • • •Sometimes these apps offer you even more features.